Discussion:
Kill Bill
(too old to reply)
hiram
2003-07-16 19:17:20 UTC
Permalink
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/16/movies/16KILL.html
How do you know?
Will be released as 2 movies, sequencially.
michael
Caribou
2003-07-16 20:00:29 UTC
Permalink
I dunno, this movie looks like it's gonna kick ass or suck ass.

Probably the latter but most Americans will think the former.
Will be released as 2 movies, sequencially.
michael
Mr Director
2003-07-16 21:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caribou
I dunno, this movie looks like it's gonna kick ass or suck ass.
Probably the latter but most Americans will think the former.
That's the lesson learned with CROUCHING TIGER
Chris Camfield
2003-07-18 04:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr Director
Post by Caribou
I dunno, this movie looks like it's gonna kick ass or suck ass.
Probably the latter but most Americans will think the former.
That's the lesson learned with CROUCHING TIGER
No, CTHD is a good film, but it's more Western-style than some expected. The
fact that people in some places didn't like it because it, say, didn't have
enough fighting, is a matter of taste, not quality.

Chris
Caribou
2003-07-18 07:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Camfield
No, CTHD is a good film, but it's more Western-style than some expected. The
fact that people in some places didn't like it because it, say, didn't have
enough fighting, is a matter of taste, not quality.
Chris
I agree with Chris that CTHD flopped in China due to cultural
differences rather than it being "good" or "bad". I definitey don't
believe it had to do with the amount of fighting in the movie nor how
often the movie was pirated, generally speaking. :)
Caribou
2003-07-18 07:23:23 UTC
Permalink
than what Ang Lee did with CTHD. I honestly think Tarantino has a HUGE hit on
his hands. He's done his homework. On a final note, enough of this Asian film
elitist bullshit. Great films are made everywhere.
Where in this thread was there "Asian film elitist bullshit"? You
assume too much.
FMastermind2002
2003-07-18 13:06:02 UTC
Permalink
CTHD. I honestly think Tarantino has a HUGE hit on
his hands. He's done his homework. On a final note, enough of this Asian
film
elitist bullshit. Great films are made everywhere.
Where in this thread was there "Asian film elitist bullshit"? You
assume too much.
When I said that I was talking about this newsgroup in general.

Mastermind2002
ashnak
2003-07-17 02:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caribou
I dunno, this movie looks like it's gonna kick ass or suck ass.
Probably the latter but most Americans will think the former.
Will be released as 2 movies, sequencially.
michael
Underworld looks interesting;-)
;-)
"He's a sorcerer, that one.
He reads the thoughts in my brain"
Mark Lenard
Star Trek
Balance of Terror
Caribou
2003-07-18 07:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Yeah because Americans are stupid and don't know anything about films and
Asians are smart and know everything. What kind of pompus shit is that.ticle...
Hey you said that, not me.
So basically everyone gets what they want out of this. Asia people get their
verison, Europe theirs and America theirs. As far as whether or not the film
will suck or be a hit, depends on whether Tarantino accomplished on screen what
he wrote in the screenplay. If he accomplished just 80% of what he wrote in the
screenplay, this film will be the best film of the year. No doubts about it.
How do you know his screenplay is any good? Have you read it?
FMastermind2002
2003-07-18 13:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Yeah because Americans are stupid and don't know anything about films and
Asians are smart and know everything. What kind of pompus shit is
that.ticle...
Hey you said that, not me.>>
I said it to spare you the time of saying it, because the vibe I got from your
comments eluded to it a pompus attitude. Yeah you didn't actually say it, but
you were thinking it and that's enough for me.

<<How do you know his screenplay is any good? Have you read it?>>

Yes I have. I've read it 4 times.

Mastermind2002
Caribou
2003-07-18 15:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by FMastermind2002
Yeah because Americans are stupid and don't know anything about films and
Asians are smart and know everything. What kind of pompus shit is
that.ticle...
Hey you said that, not me.>>
I said it to spare you the time of saying it, because the vibe I got from your
comments eluded to it a pompus attitude. Yeah you didn't actually say it, but
you were thinking it and that's enough for me.
lol who are you to know what I'm thinking? I'm not even Asian! On the
other hand I should have written more. I'm no fan of Tarantino, I
don't believe his work has been original except for Pulp Fiction. And
my statement was only a prediction: I doubt Kill Bill will appeal to
overseas audiences, particularly Asia, despite how you think he's
adapted his screenplay.
Post by FMastermind2002
<<How do you know his screenplay is any good? Have you read it?>>
Yes I have. I've read it 4 times.
Right, the "unofficial" online version.

Next time, show some restraint before you blab off like a fool.
TetsuwanATOM
2003-07-18 17:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caribou
Post by FMastermind2002
Yeah because Americans are stupid and don't know anything about films and
Asians are smart and know everything. What kind of pompus shit is
that.ticle...
Hey you said that, not me.>>
I said it to spare you the time of saying it, because the vibe I got from your
comments eluded to it a pompus attitude. Yeah you didn't actually say it, but
you were thinking it and that's enough for me.
lol who are you to know what I'm thinking? I'm not even Asian! On the
other hand I should have written more. I'm no fan of Tarantino, I
don't believe his work has been original except for Pulp Fiction. And
my statement was only a prediction: I doubt Kill Bill will appeal to
overseas audiences, particularly Asia, despite how you think he's
adapted his screenplay.
Post by FMastermind2002
<<How do you know his screenplay is any good? Have you read it?>>
Yes I have. I've read it 4 times.
Right, the "unofficial" online version.
Next time, show some restraint before you blab off like a fool.
This guy has been flacking for this film for about a year now. Fanboys can
get really annoying.
Caribou
2003-07-18 18:24:49 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:33:20 -0500, "TetsuwanATOM"
Fanboys can get really annoying.
Agreed. They'll find anything to go off on a tangent. :)
FMastermind2002
2003-07-19 03:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by TetsuwanATOM
This guy has been flacking for this film for about a year now. Fanboys can
get really annoying.
I love how people easily pull out that fanboy bullshit card. You can't have
high expectations for a film because if you do, you're a fanboy. The bullshit
in this newsgroup is astounding.

Mastermind2002
M-Wolverine
2003-08-18 22:12:53 UTC
Permalink
"TetsuwanATOM" <***@netscape.net> wrote in message news:<5gudnS-***@comcast.com>...

The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this? Now, I don't know if Kill Bill
is going to suck rocks, or be the best thing since sliced bread
(although I do expect one or the other)...but I don't understand this
complaint. Does Sean Connery always have to play Scottish guys?
(better return his Oscar)...can Andy Garcia play Italian? Does
everyone in the Godfather have to be Italian? How about Gladiator?
Can Colin Farrell play Alexander, even though he's not
Greek/Macedonian? What about AMC's commerials for Out of Africa, where
they praise Meryl Streep for playing Danish, I believe.

Where are the lines drawn for this rule? We've probably gotten to the
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM HANKS IS
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...

So what's the big problem?

Chris C.
TetsuwanATOM
2003-08-19 06:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by FMastermind2002
The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this? Now, I don't know if Kill Bill
is going to suck rocks, or be the best thing since sliced bread
(although I do expect one or the other)...but I don't understand this
complaint. Does Sean Connery always have to play Scottish guys?
(better return his Oscar)...can Andy Garcia play Italian? Does
everyone in the Godfather have to be Italian? How about Gladiator?
Can Colin Farrell play Alexander, even though he's not
Greek/Macedonian? What about AMC's commerials for Out of Africa, where
they praise Meryl Streep for playing Danish, I believe.
Where are the lines drawn for this rule? We've probably gotten to the
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM HANKS IS
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
I will just let that final comment stand on it's own.
Post by FMastermind2002
So what's the big problem?
Chris C.
M-Wolverine
2003-08-19 13:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by FMastermind2002
The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this? Now, I don't know if Kill Bill
is going to suck rocks, or be the best thing since sliced bread
(although I do expect one or the other)...but I don't understand this
complaint. Does Sean Connery always have to play Scottish guys?
(better return his Oscar)...can Andy Garcia play Italian? Does
everyone in the Godfather have to be Italian? How about Gladiator?
Can Colin Farrell play Alexander, even though he's not
Greek/Macedonian? What about AMC's commerials for Out of Africa, where
they praise Meryl Streep for playing Danish, I believe.
Where are the lines drawn for this rule? We've probably gotten to the
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM HANKS IS
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
I will just let that final comment stand on it's own.
In other words you have no argument for your own prejudices....

Art shouldn't have boundaries. But if you're going to push limits, it
had better have quality too. It's like an offensive joke...if you're
going to tell one, it damn well better be funny.

-Chris C.
TetsuwanATOM
2003-08-22 06:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by FMastermind2002
The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this? Now, I don't know if Kill Bill
is going to suck rocks, or be the best thing since sliced bread
(although I do expect one or the other)...but I don't understand this
complaint. Does Sean Connery always have to play Scottish guys?
(better return his Oscar)...can Andy Garcia play Italian? Does
everyone in the Godfather have to be Italian? How about Gladiator?
Can Colin Farrell play Alexander, even though he's not
Greek/Macedonian? What about AMC's commerials for Out of Africa, where
they praise Meryl Streep for playing Danish, I believe.
Where are the lines drawn for this rule? We've probably gotten to the
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM HANKS IS
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
I will just let that final comment stand on it's own.
In other words you have no argument for your own prejudices....
Well tonight you caught me on a bad one. My prejudices? What exactly are
those, oh wise man? I'm prejudices against Chinese people? Can Andy Garcia
play Italian? He can, but me personally I prefer the role go to an Italian
American. Does everyone in the GODFATHER have to be Italian? Well, Duvall
wasn't, but he wasn't playing Italian. Why do you think Coppola chose to
cast mostly Italian-Americans in a story about Italian Americans? You
ruminate on that one.

All your examples point to people of European descent. In the past, there's
been little issue taken with white guys donning the grease paint and putting
on a lousy accent to portray a Mexican-American, or worse yet, buck teeth
and thick glasses to play "asian." You might at first glance think this is
"cross-race role playing" but it's not exactly, as Mexican's have ancestral
origins in Europe as well as this continent. The issue is cross-cultural.
Post by M-Wolverine
Art shouldn't have boundaries. But if you're going to push limits, it
had better have quality too. It's like an offensive joke...if you're
going to tell one, it damn well better be funny.
What's this mean? "Art shouldn't have boundaries." This is not some
philosphical artistic issue, it's a more down to earth issue of casting,
working in Hollywood, and cultural awareness. Call me PC if you want, I care
not.

The Anthony Hopkins aside was supposed to be cute, but I've known about
Roth's book for some time. He isn't exactly playing an African-American, is
he?
Post by M-Wolverine
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
2003-08-22 16:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by FMastermind2002
The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this? Now, I don't know if Kill Bill
is going to suck rocks, or be the best thing since sliced bread
(although I do expect one or the other)...but I don't understand this
complaint. Does Sean Connery always have to play Scottish guys?
(better return his Oscar)...can Andy Garcia play Italian? Does
everyone in the Godfather have to be Italian? How about Gladiator?
Can Colin Farrell play Alexander, even though he's not
Greek/Macedonian? What about AMC's commerials for Out of Africa, where
they praise Meryl Streep for playing Danish, I believe.
Where are the lines drawn for this rule? We've probably gotten to the
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM HANKS IS
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
I will just let that final comment stand on it's own.
In other words you have no argument for your own prejudices....
Well tonight you caught me on a bad one. My prejudices? What exactly are
those, oh wise man?
Well, as long as you acknowledge it.

I'm prejudices against Chinese people?

Just that you don't think people should be allowed to play other
races.


Can Andy Garcia
Post by TetsuwanATOM
play Italian? He can, but me personally I prefer the role go to an Italian
American. Does everyone in the GODFATHER have to be Italian? Well, Duvall
wasn't, but he wasn't playing Italian. Why do you think Coppola chose to
cast mostly Italian-Americans in a story about Italian Americans? You
ruminate on that one.
Nothing to ruminate. Why do you think he DIDN'T cast all Italian
Americans? He went who he thought was best for the role. And other
factors, such as star power, and such. If he, as the creative force,
didn't feel it had to be that way, who are we to say different?

You still haven't really defended your position at all. You even say
it's ok. Just that it's a personal preference. But no reason that
anyone else should be forced or choose to act the same way you feel.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
All your examples point to people of European descent. In the past, there's
been little issue taken with white guys donning the grease paint and putting
on a lousy accent to portray a Mexican-American, or worse yet, buck teeth
and thick glasses to play "asian." You might at first glance think this is
"cross-race role playing" but it's not exactly, as Mexican's have ancestral
origins in Europe as well as this continent. The issue is cross-cultural.
You're not objecting to a European playing another European, but have
a big problem with an Asian playing another Asian. Doesn't seem
consistant. In this case, the director did not cast a German to play
Japanese, but yet you still object.

And I didn't need to point out examples of people of other asian
nationalities playing other asian nationalities, because you already
made it clear you object to that. I was pointing out that it doesn't
only happen in cases of Asians, but in all groups. (You know, if
you're dying for an example, I really don't think Kelly Hu has any
Egyptian in her...)
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
Art shouldn't have boundaries. But if you're going to push limits, it
had better have quality too. It's like an offensive joke...if you're
going to tell one, it damn well better be funny.
What's this mean? "Art shouldn't have boundaries." This is not some
philosphical artistic issue, it's a more down to earth issue of casting,
working in Hollywood, and cultural awareness. Call me PC if you want, I care
not.
OK. PC!! PC!! PC!!

But, more pertanently, sure it's an artistic issue. It's also a
casting/working in Hollywood issue. Cultural awareness has
questionable value, and isn't really the job or concern of the artist,
or the businessman. The artist seeks who they feel can best fufill
the role of the character....and can perform the best. The business
side wants something that will draw interest in the movie.

If people were pigeonholed into just their specific categories, a lot
more people would be employed, sure. But there'd be less star power,
and movie attraction. And that's where the power to shape things
comes from. Would it be more "real" for some unknown Japanese actress
to play the role? Possible. But would a large group of throwaway
Asian actresses really serve the community? Or is it better to have a
smaller group, who get more roles, create star power, get people to
accept and want to pay money to see asian faces, get power to develop
things in Hollywood, and open doors to the possibility of them being
treated like other actors in Hollywood? Actors don't want to protect
their little niche's, because those are limited, and Hollywood will
never be some communistic equality play; they want the freedom to be
able to do anything. Sean Connery didn't want to become a star so
he'd be first in line for any Scottish roles....he wanted to power and
bankability to be able to play roles that AREN'T the "Scottish
character".
Post by TetsuwanATOM
The Anthony Hopkins aside was supposed to be cute, but I've known about
Roth's book for some time. He isn't exactly playing an African-American, is
he?
Well, in the movie, he's playing a light skinned African-American.
Now, I can't imagine any of his features come off as even being mixed,
and their using no make-up to alter that....so he's pretty much the
whitest guy around playing black. Best casting? Maybe not. But he's
an accomplished actor, and perhaps he's trying to stretch. He might
succeed. He might fail miserably. But I'm not inherently against the
attempt.

Chris C.
TetsuwanATOM
2003-08-25 23:04:19 UTC
Permalink
"M-Wolverine" <***@umich.edu> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...

First, before I forget, Hopkins is NOT SIMPLY PLAYING A LIGHT SKINNED
AFRICAN AMERICAN. You clearly don't understand what's going on in the
storyline, or else you would understand why they cast a white actor. You
have to have someone that most people will look at and say, "that's a white
dude."
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Can Andy Garcia
Post by TetsuwanATOM
play Italian? He can, but me personally I prefer the role go to an Italian
American. Does everyone in the GODFATHER have to be Italian? Well, Duvall
wasn't, but he wasn't playing Italian. Why do you think Coppola chose to
cast mostly Italian-Americans in a story about Italian Americans? You
ruminate on that one.
Nothing to ruminate. Why do you think he DIDN'T cast all Italian
Americans? He went who he thought was best for the role. And other
factors, such as star power, and such. If he, as the creative force,
didn't feel it had to be that way, who are we to say different?
Huh? What version of GODFATHER are you referring to? The Norwegian TV
remake? Garcia is the only exception, and that's for III. Just take a look
at the IMDB cast list for all the GODFATHER films. And, wasn't Garcia's
character an out of wedlock birth, not "in the family?"
Post by TetsuwanATOM
You're not objecting to a European playing another European, but have
a big problem with an Asian playing another Asian. Doesn't seem
consistant. In this case, the director did not cast a German to play
Japanese, but yet you still object.
Uh, yes I did object to it.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
But, more pertanently, sure it's an artistic issue. It's also a
casting/working in Hollywood issue. Cultural awareness has
questionable value, and isn't really the job or concern of the artist,
or the businessman. The artist seeks who they feel can best fufill
the role of the character....and can perform the best. The business
side wants something that will draw interest in the movie.
Why isn't it the "job or concern" of the artist? If I'm doing "Picture
Bride" I want Nissei actresses, Hawaiian natives, Japanese ex-pats. Why?
They bring a little more to the role than "authenticity." There is something
in their experience, their background, that helps me as a story teller. In
the afformentioned example Coppola was very concerned with culture. It was
part of his story.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
If people were pigeonholed into just their specific categories, a lot
more people would be employed, sure. But there'd be less star power,
and movie attraction.
How so? Why would there be less star power and "movie attraction" whatever
that is? People are already pigeonholed in to specific categories. Michael
Rooker is the insane cop on the edge 80% of the time you see him in a movie.
Omar Epps is the thug with a heart of gold. Or the thug doctor with a heart
of gold. Or the thug student with a heart of gold.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
And that's where the power to shape things
comes from. Would it be more "real" for some unknown Japanese actress
to play the role? Possible. But would a large group of throwaway
Asian actresses really serve the community?
Why do they have to be "throwaway" actresses? out of all the actresses in LA
and NY, about 1% of them work consistently for ANY race. Its far less than
that for minority race/ethnic actors. They'd be no more throwaway if they
got to play Japanese when a role called for Japanese instead of the roles
going to the same five actresses all the time (Liu, Cho, Hu, Ming-na,
Tomita).
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Or is it better to have a
smaller group, who get more roles, create star power, get people to
accept and want to pay money to see asian faces, get power to develop
things in Hollywood, and open doors to the possibility of them being
treated like other actors in Hollywood?
Let's look at African-Americans and Hollywood. There were star power actors
in the 50s and 60s. But save a short period in the mid 70s, Hollywood didn't
open up to black films until much much later, and it wasn't based on "star
power" at all. There are many so called "black" films getting greenlit all
the time, but there aren't that many more black executives in the buisness
than there was 20 years ago. Y
M-Wolverine
2003-08-26 13:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by TetsuwanATOM
First, before I forget, Hopkins is NOT SIMPLY PLAYING A LIGHT SKINNED
AFRICAN AMERICAN. You clearly don't understand what's going on in the
storyline, or else you would understand why they cast a white actor. You
have to have someone that most people will look at and say, "that's a white
dude."
OK, I'll defer to you knowledge, because you seem to know a lot about
it.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Can Andy Garcia
Post by TetsuwanATOM
play Italian? He can, but me personally I prefer the role go to an
Italian
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by TetsuwanATOM
American. Does everyone in the GODFATHER have to be Italian? Well,
Duvall
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by TetsuwanATOM
wasn't, but he wasn't playing Italian. Why do you think Coppola chose to
cast mostly Italian-Americans in a story about Italian Americans? You
ruminate on that one.
Nothing to ruminate. Why do you think he DIDN'T cast all Italian
Americans? He went who he thought was best for the role. And other
factors, such as star power, and such. If he, as the creative force,
didn't feel it had to be that way, who are we to say different?
Huh? What version of GODFATHER are you referring to? The Norwegian TV
remake? Garcia is the only exception, and that's for III. Just take a look
at the IMDB cast list for all the GODFATHER films. And, wasn't Garcia's
character an out of wedlock birth, not "in the family?"
Well, I think it was you who brought up Duvall. James Caan doesn't
strike me as full-blood Italian. Is Brando even 100% Italian?
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by TetsuwanATOM
But, more pertanently, sure it's an artistic issue. It's also a
casting/working in Hollywood issue. Cultural awareness has
questionable value, and isn't really the job or concern of the artist,
or the businessman. The artist seeks who they feel can best fufill
the role of the character....and can perform the best. The business
side wants something that will draw interest in the movie.
Why isn't it the "job or concern" of the artist? If I'm doing "Picture
Bride" I want Nissei actresses, Hawaiian natives, Japanese ex-pats. Why?
They bring a little more to the role than "authenticity." There is something
in their experience, their background, that helps me as a story teller. In
the afformentioned example Coppola was very concerned with culture. It was
part of his story.
It COULD be. But again....if you're talking about something set in
the old country....who's more likely to have a similar experience (say
the Japanese example)...a fourth generation Japanese American, or a
first generation Chinese? Now, certainly you could cast a
first-generation Japanese, but then I think you're wistfully hoping
for a film with a total cast of unknowns, too.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by TetsuwanATOM
If people were pigeonholed into just their specific categories, a lot
more people would be employed, sure. But there'd be less star power,
and movie attraction.
How so? Why would there be less star power and "movie attraction" whatever
that is? People are already pigeonholed in to specific categories. Michael
Rooker is the insane cop on the edge 80% of the time you see him in a movie.
Omar Epps is the thug with a heart of gold. Or the thug doctor with a heart
of gold. Or the thug student with a heart of gold.
Welcome to Hollywood! It's not just Asian actors who get typecast!
And maybe, often, people get typecast because they do it well...
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by TetsuwanATOM
And that's where the power to shape things
comes from. Would it be more "real" for some unknown Japanese actress
to play the role? Possible. But would a large group of throwaway
Asian actresses really serve the community?
Why do they have to be "throwaway" actresses? out of all the actresses in LA
and NY, about 1% of them work consistently for ANY race. Its far less than
that for minority race/ethnic actors. They'd be no more throwaway if they
got to play Japanese when a role called for Japanese instead of the roles
going to the same five actresses all the time (Liu, Cho, Hu, Ming-na,
Tomita).
You mean like the big budget starring vechicles go to the same five
actors all the time? Hollywood thinks people go to see movies to see
recognizable faces. Faces that can help open movies. Whether it's
valid or not is another story...
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Or is it better to have a
smaller group, who get more roles, create star power, get people to
accept and want to pay money to see asian faces, get power to develop
things in Hollywood, and open doors to the possibility of them being
treated like other actors in Hollywood?
Let's look at African-Americans and Hollywood. There were star power actors
in the 50s and 60s. But save a short period in the mid 70s, Hollywood didn't
open up to black films until much much later, and it wasn't based on "star
power" at all. There are many so called "black" films getting greenlit all
the time, but there aren't that many more black executives in the buisness
than there was 20 years ago. Y
Well, now you're combining two completely seperate issues....on
camera, and running studios. Frankly, there aren't that many white in
front of the camera types who later run studios either.

And has it been a long road, and have they reached any good place yet?
Not at all. But the fact that a Denzel Washington, or a Will Smith,
or a Halle Berry can be an attraction that draws audiences is
something that's only been a recent occurance. Should have happened a
long time ago. Once the audience accepts it, the studios will too.
And that's done by having people who show they have drawing power.
And that's better realized by a small number of people who are "stars"
vs. a large group of nondescript people.

In a perfect world, the best person for every role may be cast....with
regard to acting and fitness, and no regard for fame. But that's a
part of Hollywood that will NEVER change...

-Chris C.
TetsuwanATOM
2003-08-26 14:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by M-Wolverine
Well, I think it was you who brought up Duvall. James Caan doesn't
strike me as full-blood Italian. Is Brando even 100% Italian?
Duvall played Irish, a consigliere (sp?) counsel to the mob. He could not be
a part of the Corleone family because he wasn't Italian. I used to think
Caan was Jewish, but he isn't. Yes, Brando is Italian.
Post by M-Wolverine
It COULD be. But again....if you're talking about something set in
the old country....who's more likely to have a similar experience (say
the Japanese example)...a fourth generation Japanese American, or a
first generation Chinese?
It depends on how that first generation Chinese person feels about Nanking.
(^_*). Still, that fourth generation Japanese American actress might well
have heard the stories told them by their ancestors, for example.
Post by M-Wolverine
Now, certainly you could cast a
first-generation Japanese, but then I think you're wistfully hoping
for a film with a total cast of unknowns, too.
No, but that's how it might turn out, or at least how it might appear to
American audiences. One good thing about SNOW FALLING ON CEDARS (besides the
cinematography) with the exception of Rick Yune, most were Japanese or
Japanese Americans.
Post by M-Wolverine
Welcome to Hollywood! It's not just Asian actors who get typecast!
And maybe, often, people get typecast because they do it well...
sigh, well I never said it was only Asian actors getting typecast.
Post by M-Wolverine
You mean like the big budget starring vechicles go to the same five
actors all the time? Hollywood thinks people go to see movies to see
recognizable faces. Faces that can help open movies. Whether it's
valid or not is another story...
No, I don't mean like big budget tent pole movies. I'm even talking about
straight to the USA network crap. Out of the five actresses I listed, Liu is
the only one who could be considered to have some "star power" in the way
you mean it, though I'll reserve my judgment on that until she gets cast
opposite Matt Damon in a laugh riot romantic comedy. Then again I should
keep my mouth shut since there's talk of a MY SASSY GIRL remake. If you're
arguing that Liu may yet pave the way for more Asian actresses . . . where's
that wave of Latinas that should be running through that door JLo left open
for them?
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
Or is it better to have a
smaller group, who get more roles, create star power, get people to
accept and want to pay money to see asian faces, get power to develop
things in Hollywood, and open doors to the possibility of them being
treated like other actors in Hollywood?
Let's look at African-Americans and Hollywood. There were star power actors
in the 50s and 60s. But save a short period in the mid 70s, Hollywood didn't
open up to black films until much much later, and it wasn't based on "star
power" at all. There are many so called "black" films getting greenlit all
the time, but there aren't that many more black executives in the buisness
than there was 20 years ago. Y
Well, now you're combining two completely seperate issues....on
camera, and running studios. Frankly, there aren't that many white in
front of the camera types who later run studios either.
You implied behind the scenes power becoming a factor by Asians gaining
power in Hollywood through your argument. I'm not talking about actors who
go to run studios.
Post by M-Wolverine
And has it been a long road, and have they reached any good place yet?
Not at all. But the fact that a Denzel Washington, or a Will Smith,
or a Halle Berry can be an attraction that draws audiences is
something that's only been a recent occurance. Should have happened a
long time ago. Once the audience accepts it, the studios will too.
And that's done by having people who show they have drawing power.
And that's better realized by a small number of people who are "stars"
vs. a large group of nondescript people.
In a perfect world, the best person for every role may be cast....with
regard to acting and fitness, and no regard for fame. But that's a
part of Hollywood that will NEVER change...
I think it will. It's becoming easier and easier to produce a film. The
distribution is the hard part. However there are more venues now if we look
beyond theatrical releases and at the cable networks, especially the movie
channels. That can only create more opportunities for filmmakers.
Post by M-Wolverine
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
2003-08-27 14:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
Well, I think it was you who brought up Duvall. James Caan doesn't
strike me as full-blood Italian. Is Brando even 100% Italian?
Duvall played Irish, a consigliere (sp?) counsel to the mob. He could not be
a part of the Corleone family because he wasn't Italian.
You're right of course.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
It COULD be. But again....if you're talking about something set in
the old country....who's more likely to have a similar experience (say
the Japanese example)...a fourth generation Japanese American, or a
first generation Chinese?
It depends on how that first generation Chinese person feels about Nanking.
(^_*).
:)

Still, that fourth generation Japanese American actress might well
Post by TetsuwanATOM
have heard the stories told them by their ancestors, for example.
Well, that's just it...it's on an individual basis...by the same
token, an immigrant who came over as a kid, but was raised here, might
not give a flying leap. It can go either way, or somewhere inbetween.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
Now, certainly you could cast a
first-generation Japanese, but then I think you're wistfully hoping
for a film with a total cast of unknowns, too.
No, but that's how it might turn out, or at least how it might appear to
American audiences. One good thing about SNOW FALLING ON CEDARS (besides the
cinematography) with the exception of Rick Yune, most were Japanese or
Japanese Americans.
True...but then that movie didn't do too well with a bunch of
nobodies, either.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
You mean like the big budget starring vechicles go to the same five
actors all the time? Hollywood thinks people go to see movies to see
recognizable faces. Faces that can help open movies. Whether it's
valid or not is another story...
No, I don't mean like big budget tent pole movies. I'm even talking about
straight to the USA network crap. Out of the five actresses I listed, Liu is
the only one who could be considered to have some "star power" in the way
you mean it, though I'll reserve my judgment on that until she gets cast
opposite Matt Damon in a laugh riot romantic comedy.
See...that's my dream...why can't that work? (just retorical)
Romantic comedies are hardly race-specifc historic roles. Those are
the roles that will show we've come to a point where it doesn't
matter. And the way to go about it is just that...cast some modestly
star powered minority (Lucy Liu in your example)...with some big name
star that will draw in the ladies no matter who he's wooing...(Matt
Damon....maybe....not quite to that Tom Cruise level yet..)...or you
can go the other way....if Julia Roberts love interests can be gay,
why can't they be of a different color? Don't know that Hollywood has
gotten so free thinking yet.

Then again I should
Post by TetsuwanATOM
keep my mouth shut since there's talk of a MY SASSY GIRL remake. If you're
arguing that Liu may yet pave the way for more Asian actresses . . . where's
that wave of Latinas that should be running through that door JLo left open
for them?
Actually, I don't know that this is a good example. There's been a
lot more getting roles than before. Those Fast and the Furious chicks
seem to be in every other movie now...there's a lot more exposure and
casting. Has anyone really reached big time star status? I don't
think so...but then, J-Lo isn't that deep into HER being that big a
star. But there's certainly more roles that are being cast that way.
Besides, I like Salma Hayek better... ;)

Lucy Liu may not be the one to start opening up roles for others...but
she may be the one who opens up minds that leads to the casting of the
one who opens up roles for others. Sidney Poitier didn't begate
Denzel Washington. But he certainly changed the way blacks were
portrayed on screen, and opened the doors for the Washingtons and Will
Smiths and Eddie Murphys to expand on later.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
Or is it better to have a
smaller group, who get more roles, create star power, get people to
accept and want to pay money to see asian faces, get power to develop
things in Hollywood, and open doors to the possibility of them being
treated like other actors in Hollywood?
Let's look at African-Americans and Hollywood. There were star power
actors
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
in the 50s and 60s. But save a short period in the mid 70s, Hollywood
didn't
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
open up to black films until much much later, and it wasn't based on
"star
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
power" at all. There are many so called "black" films getting greenlit
all
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
the time, but there aren't that many more black executives in the
buisness
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
than there was 20 years ago. Y
Well, now you're combining two completely seperate issues....on
camera, and running studios. Frankly, there aren't that many white in
front of the camera types who later run studios either.
You implied behind the scenes power becoming a factor by Asians gaining
power in Hollywood through your argument. I'm not talking about actors who
go to run studios.
Well, movie STARS do have power in Hollywood, behind the scenes.
Power to get films made, power to get cast in what they want, power to
influence the movies they are in. So you can have power in Hollywood
without being in a studio. Heck, other than a handful of powerbrokers,
most studio exec's are just there to get fired when the movies they
greenlit bomb. Big actors have tons more power than that...they can
go over their head to the Weinsteins of the world. Studios have the
most power, but as a conglomerate...less the individual.
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
And has it been a long road, and have they reached any good place yet?
Not at all. But the fact that a Denzel Washington, or a Will Smith,
or a Halle Berry can be an attraction that draws audiences is
something that's only been a recent occurance. Should have happened a
long time ago. Once the audience accepts it, the studios will too.
And that's done by having people who show they have drawing power.
And that's better realized by a small number of people who are "stars"
vs. a large group of nondescript people.
In a perfect world, the best person for every role may be cast....with
regard to acting and fitness, and no regard for fame. But that's a
part of Hollywood that will NEVER change...
I think it will. It's becoming easier and easier to produce a film. The
distribution is the hard part. However there are more venues now if we look
beyond theatrical releases and at the cable networks, especially the movie
channels. That can only create more opportunities for filmmakers.
I agree with you to an extent. The easier to produce and see films,
and the more variety, the better for filmmaker and viewer. Win-win.
However, I think the driving force will always be people's attraction
to stars, and the whole fantasy of it, that ties into the movies, and
allows people to escape their lives for something more glamorous in a
darkened theater.

There's a reason even the ugly people are pretty in Hollywood... ;)

Chris C.
TetsuwanATOM
2003-08-27 18:46:39 UTC
Permalink
"M-Wolverine" <***@umich.edu> wrote in message
<snip>
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
Now, certainly you could cast a
first-generation Japanese, but then I think you're wistfully hoping
for a film with a total cast of unknowns, too.
No, but that's how it might turn out, or at least how it might appear to
American audiences. One good thing about SNOW FALLING ON CEDARS (besides the
cinematography) with the exception of Rick Yune, most were Japanese or
Japanese Americans.
True...but then that movie didn't do too well with a bunch of
nobodies, either.
Ethan Hawke was a nobody? I mean, yeah, if you ask me he is, but at that
time he was a media darling. Who would have made it better? Margaret Cho in
the role Youki Kudoh played? At this point, it really doesn't matter about
the "nobodies" thing, because with the exception of the big five they are
ALL going to be nobodies to most people at this point (and it's likely that
most people wouldn't know Cho or Tomita).
<snip>

OC Gwailo
2003-08-21 02:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by FMastermind2002
The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this? Now, I don't know if Kill Bill
is going to suck rocks, or be the best thing since sliced bread
(although I do expect one or the other)...but I don't understand this
complaint. Does Sean Connery always have to play Scottish guys?
(better return his Oscar)...can Andy Garcia play Italian? Does
everyone in the Godfather have to be Italian? How about Gladiator?
Can Colin Farrell play Alexander, even though he's not
Greek/Macedonian? What about AMC's commerials for Out of Africa, where
they praise Meryl Streep for playing Danish, I believe.
Where are the lines drawn for this rule? We've probably gotten to the
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM HANKS IS
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
I will just let that final comment stand on it's own.
Can't wait to see your reaction that Anthony Hopkins is playing an
African-American in "The Human Stain" coming out next month....
-Chris C.
That brings up an interesting quandary: What do you call a white person from
South Africa who has immigrated to the United States?
The dog from that film you saw
2003-08-21 16:20:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by OC Gwailo
That brings up an interesting quandary: What do you call a white person from
South Africa who has immigrated to the United States?
lucky?


--
Gareth
quote of the day
'nostradamus? -sounds like a rock group to me!'
see my ebay auctions a
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F4B314E61
Mo Lei Tau
2003-08-22 00:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by The dog from that film you saw
Post by OC Gwailo
That brings up an interesting quandary: What do you call a white person
from
Post by OC Gwailo
South Africa who has immigrated to the United States?
lucky?
Julia Stiles (or some actress from SA) joked on Sat. Nite Live that she
was an African American, yet, I somehow doubt that ex-South Africans are
enthusiastic to identify themselves as such.

--
Edshugeo The GodMoor
http://edshugeo.com
http://www.mp3.com/psychovoyager
http://www.mp3.com/ejam

I just came. Everything just came. W-was that the big bang?
Alan Moore - Promethea book four
OC Gwailo
2003-08-23 04:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by The dog from that film you saw
Post by OC Gwailo
That brings up an interesting quandary: What do you call a white person
from
Post by OC Gwailo
South Africa who has immigrated to the United States?
lucky?
--
Gareth
quote of the day
'nostradamus? -sounds like a rock group to me!'
see my ebay auctions a
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F4B314E61
:D
M-Wolverine
2003-08-21 17:23:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by OC Gwailo
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by FMastermind2002
The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this? Now, I don't know if Kill Bill
is going to suck rocks, or be the best thing since sliced bread
(although I do expect one or the other)...but I don't understand this
complaint. Does Sean Connery always have to play Scottish guys?
(better return his Oscar)...can Andy Garcia play Italian? Does
everyone in the Godfather have to be Italian? How about Gladiator?
Can Colin Farrell play Alexander, even though he's not
Greek/Macedonian? What about AMC's commerials for Out of Africa, where
they praise Meryl Streep for playing Danish, I believe.
Where are the lines drawn for this rule? We've probably gotten to the
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM HANKS IS
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
I will just let that final comment stand on it's own.
Can't wait to see your reaction that Anthony Hopkins is playing an
African-American in "The Human Stain" coming out next month....
-Chris C.
That brings up an interesting quandary: What do you call a white person from
South Africa who has immigrated to the United States?
Or a black person from Canada, England, France....or places of native
birth, like Australia, or the Caribbean? Shockingly enough, not all
Black people are from Africa....

-Chris C.
D***@webtv.net
2003-08-21 20:44:23 UTC
Permalink
'shockingly enough not all Black people are from Africa"?...lol oh
yea?...where then?...north pole?....of course they are, all decendants
from someone originally from Africa. That;s like saying not all Chinese
People are from China, even if a chinese person was born in Poland, his
ancestry can somehow be traced to someone in China.
M-Wolverine
2003-08-22 16:45:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@webtv.net
'shockingly enough not all Black people are from Africa"?...lol oh
yea?...where then?...north pole?....of course they are, all decendants
from someone originally from Africa. That;s like saying not all Chinese
People are from China, even if a chinese person was born in Poland, his
ancestry can somehow be traced to someone in China.
Uhm, no. That'd be like saying all asian people are from China.
(Heck, that doesn't even work....it'd be more like saying all people
of that skin tone are from Asian). Your Poland example only works if
the Chinese had migrated to Poland hundreds of years ago, or
thousands, created a population there, became part in parcel of the
country or land. By that reasoning, Filipinos should call themselves
Spanish-American, Chinese-American, Native Americans. (Hmm, what are
indignious people who don't come from the new world have to call
themselves?). But, I doubt anyone's anally and erroneously classify
people over there.

I'd say the Australian Aborignines would who migrate to American
wouldn't consider themselves African-American. Yet, would qualify to
most as black.

If you're saying that all tribes and groups who are black migrated
over landbridges from African at some certain point, then you might as
well say EVERYONE living in the US is an African American, since the
best current science shows that all human tribes originated in
African, and migrated to Europe, Asia, North America, and so forth,
from there.

And that's going to cause havoc with the affirmative action laws.

Chris C.
David Maciver
2003-08-23 13:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by M-Wolverine
If you're saying that all tribes and groups who are black migrated
over landbridges from African at some certain point, then you might as
well say EVERYONE living in the US is an African American, since the
best current science shows that all human tribes originated in
African, and migrated to Europe, Asia, North America, and so forth,
from there.
And there is the problem. How many years do you want to go back? That's a
couple of hundred thousand I think, or a couple of dozen at least. Unless
your a Christian fundamentalist, then it's 6000 years ago and we never
migrated from anywhere, we just were.

Can't you just call each other Americans? If I go back a couple of
generations my family is from England, Ireland and Scotland respectively.
That's the ones I know about anyway. I don't call myself Irish or English.
I was born in Scotland. My parents are Scottish. That makes me Scottish.
Pretty simply really. And we don't go around calling Asian people
Asian-British or Asian-Scottish either. It's bloody stupid. Don't see what
a skin pigmentation and facial structure have to do with anything
TetsuwanATOM
2003-08-23 02:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by OC Gwailo
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM
HANKS
IS
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by OC Gwailo
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
I will just let that final comment stand on it's own.
Can't wait to see your reaction that Anthony Hopkins is playing an
African-American in "The Human Stain" coming out next month....
-Chris C.
That brings up an interesting quandary: What do you call a white
person
from
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by OC Gwailo
South Africa who has immigrated to the United States?
Or a black person from Canada, England, France....or places of native
birth, like Australia, or the Caribbean? Shockingly enough, not all
Black people are from Africa....
Oh, really . . .
Think about it...you'll figure it out. Unless of course you want to
count the idea that everyone at one point is believed to have migrated
out of Africa....but then that would hamper your idea that people of
different nationalities shouldn't play each other, because that would
really drive home the idea that we're all basically the same.
Chris C.
Oh, don't get PC on me now Chris, are we really basically all the same? Oh,
then I can't wait until a black actor plays King Arthur, or an Asian actor
gets to play Robin Hood in a theatrical release.

anyway, you're confusing yourself semantically. For you "from" means both
"origin" and "place of birth." For many people in the context of this
discussion, "from" means origin, and not "place of birth." but you are
giving yourself the latittude to have it mean whatever suits your argument.
BTW, some black people from Canada like Afro-Canadian. some dont. The
"black" people in France are mostly from various countries in North Africa
and refer to themselves as originating from those places, or they say
"negre."
M-Wolverine
2003-08-25 13:29:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by OC Gwailo
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by OC Gwailo
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM
HANKS
IS
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by OC Gwailo
Post by TetsuwanATOM
Post by M-Wolverine
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
I will just let that final comment stand on it's own.
Can't wait to see your reaction that Anthony Hopkins is playing an
African-American in "The Human Stain" coming out next month....
-Chris C.
That brings up an interesting quandary: What do you call a white
person
from
Post by M-Wolverine
Post by OC Gwailo
South Africa who has immigrated to the United States?
Or a black person from Canada, England, France....or places of native
birth, like Australia, or the Caribbean? Shockingly enough, not all
Black people are from Africa....
Oh, really . . .
Think about it...you'll figure it out. Unless of course you want to
count the idea that everyone at one point is believed to have migrated
out of Africa....but then that would hamper your idea that people of
different nationalities shouldn't play each other, because that would
really drive home the idea that we're all basically the same.
Chris C.
Oh, don't get PC on me now Chris, are we really basically all the same?
On a genetic level, yup.

Oh,
Post by OC Gwailo
then I can't wait until a black actor plays King Arthur, or an Asian actor
gets to play Robin Hood in a theatrical release.
Well, many a minority actor has played various Shakespearian
characters. But we're not talking about characters that have a
specific creation and history...we're talking about characters that
are original, and can pretty much be anything.

Robin Hood's a white guy. I wouldn't necessarily want to see a white
guy playing Shaft, or a black woman playing Mulan, either. But if
you're creating a totally original character, that's where you can
break stereotypical barriers, and cast people in less typecast roles.

It's not really happening yet, but it's getting better.
Post by OC Gwailo
anyway, you're confusing yourself semantically. For you "from" means both
"origin" and "place of birth." For many people in the context of this
discussion, "from" means origin, and not "place of birth." but you are
giving yourself the latittude to have it mean whatever suits your argument.
But as stated by another poster, who and how does one draw the line at
when the "origin" really begins? At the begining of humanity? This
century? BC...AD? When does one stop having their "origin" from some
place? And who decides?
Post by OC Gwailo
BTW, some black people from Canada like Afro-Canadian. some dont. The
"black" people in France are mostly from various countries in North Africa
and refer to themselves as originating from those places, or they say
"negre."
And that's the point, while it's all very "PC" and warm and fuzzy to
let everyone call themselves what they want....as a group, it's not
realistic. And since everyone can have a different view, the more
categorizations you have, the less likely it will accurately portray
the group, and the more unwieldy it is.

-Chris C.
DaWindow
2003-08-24 07:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Well, didn't Steve Martin play a black guy in
The Jerk?
Although he was the white sheep of the family,
I suppose.
.....
OC Gwailo
2003-08-19 04:04:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by FMastermind2002
The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this? Now, I don't know if Kill Bill
is going to suck rocks, or be the best thing since sliced bread
(although I do expect one or the other)...but I don't understand this
complaint. Does Sean Connery always have to play Scottish guys?
(better return his Oscar)...can Andy Garcia play Italian? Does
everyone in the Godfather have to be Italian? How about Gladiator?
Can Colin Farrell play Alexander, even though he's not
Greek/Macedonian? What about AMC's commerials for Out of Africa, where
they praise Meryl Streep for playing Danish, I believe.
Where are the lines drawn for this rule? We've probably gotten to the
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM HANKS IS
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
So what's the big problem?
Chris C.
I still haven't figured out why it bugs me when Dustin Nguyen plays every
Asian nationality, Lucy Liu plays Japanese, and Rick Yune has yet to play a
Korean (what I call Universal Asian Syndrome), but it's perfectly okay with
me that Antonio Banderas, a Spaniard, plays a Mexican.

But I draw the line at Scotsmen playing Americans! ;)

ocg
M-Wolverine
2003-08-19 13:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by OC Gwailo
Post by FMastermind2002
The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this? Now, I don't know if Kill Bill
is going to suck rocks, or be the best thing since sliced bread
(although I do expect one or the other)...but I don't understand this
complaint. Does Sean Connery always have to play Scottish guys?
(better return his Oscar)...can Andy Garcia play Italian? Does
everyone in the Godfather have to be Italian? How about Gladiator?
Can Colin Farrell play Alexander, even though he's not
Greek/Macedonian? What about AMC's commerials for Out of Africa, where
they praise Meryl Streep for playing Danish, I believe.
Where are the lines drawn for this rule? We've probably gotten to the
point where cross-race role-playing is not a good idea (TOM HANKS IS
MALCOLM X), but, if done right, I might even accept that...
So what's the big problem?
Chris C.
I still haven't figured out why it bugs me when Dustin Nguyen plays every
Asian nationality, Lucy Liu plays Japanese, and Rick Yune has yet to play a
Korean (what I call Universal Asian Syndrome), but it's perfectly okay with
me that Antonio Banderas, a Spaniard, plays a Mexican.
But I draw the line at Scotsmen playing Americans! ;)
ocg
Poor Ewan McGregor.... ;)

Chris C.
David Maciver
2003-08-19 17:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by OC Gwailo
I still haven't figured out why it bugs me when Dustin Nguyen plays every
Asian nationality, Lucy Liu plays Japanese, and Rick Yune has yet to play a
Korean (what I call Universal Asian Syndrome), but it's perfectly okay with
me that Antonio Banderas, a Spaniard, plays a Mexican.
But I draw the line at Scotsmen playing Americans! ;)
ocg
What about Aussies? Or Canadians? There's also the massive issue that
every time that Jesus appears on anything he's a white guy. Brother is from
the middle east for god sake. It's part of being an actor. I had to play
someone from the south of England once, and I'm from the North of Scotland.
The accents are extremely different.

I know that Asian's playing characters from countries other than their own
is different as there are varied facial features etc. but it would be no
different to me playing someone from Germany or Norway. I'm pretty good at
spotting where a European tourist is from without hearing an accent...
Canuck21
2003-08-20 05:08:41 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:04:17 GMT, "OC Gwailo"
Post by OC Gwailo
I still haven't figured out why it bugs me when Dustin Nguyen plays every
Asian nationality, Lucy Liu plays Japanese, and Rick Yune has yet to play a
Korean (what I call Universal Asian Syndrome), but it's perfectly okay with
me that Antonio Banderas, a Spaniard, plays a Mexican.
But I draw the line at Scotsmen playing Americans! ;)
The reason is you're overly sensitive. Everybody is equal, so if
Irish, Scottish, English, Australians and Canadians can play
Americans, then a Chinese can sure pretend to be Japanese.

Canuck21
http://tvbmusic.tripod.com/
OC Gwailo
2003-08-21 02:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Canuck21
On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:04:17 GMT, "OC Gwailo"
Post by OC Gwailo
I still haven't figured out why it bugs me when Dustin Nguyen plays every
Asian nationality, Lucy Liu plays Japanese, and Rick Yune has yet to play a
Korean (what I call Universal Asian Syndrome), but it's perfectly okay with
me that Antonio Banderas, a Spaniard, plays a Mexican.
But I draw the line at Scotsmen playing Americans! ;)
The reason is you're overly sensitive. Everybody is equal, so if
Irish, Scottish, English, Australians and Canadians can play
Americans, then a Chinese can sure pretend to be Japanese.
Canuck21
http://tvbmusic.tripod.com/
*I'm* overly sensitive? Why you--! :D

I'm not sure what you mean by "Everybody is equal." (Actually, I think I'm
with you on this.) How about this: Let's strip all actors of their skin and
then we'll be on the way to visual equality. Because I think what we're
talking about here is skin color and features. And while the Western
European features of all those nationalities you mentioned are extremely
similar, it's not so between Asians. Maybe it's a cross-breeding thing.

Perhaps it IS a matter of sensitivity. I can look at a woman and tell she's
Vietnamese, because I'm attuned to the differences in the...shoot, what do
you even call it? Nationalities? Put it this way: There is quite a bit of
crossover in "looks," but in general I can tell Japanese from Vietnamese
from Korean from Chinese. And because I can, it sorta bugs me when they do
the cross-casting. And knowing the historical animosity between certain
peoples (Japanese and Korean in particular), I'm sure it must annoy some of
them, too.
Canuck21
2003-08-21 07:45:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:34:04 GMT, "OC Gwailo"
Post by OC Gwailo
*I'm* overly sensitive? Why you--! :D
I'm not sure what you mean by "Everybody is equal." (Actually, I think I'm
with you on this.) How about this: Let's strip all actors of their skin and
then we'll be on the way to visual equality. Because I think what we're
talking about here is skin color and features. And while the Western
European features of all those nationalities you mentioned are extremely
similar, it's not so between Asians. Maybe it's a cross-breeding thing.
Perhaps it IS a matter of sensitivity. I can look at a woman and tell she's
Vietnamese, because I'm attuned to the differences in the...shoot, what do
you even call it? Nationalities? Put it this way: There is quite a bit of
crossover in "looks," but in general I can tell Japanese from Vietnamese
from Korean from Chinese. And because I can, it sorta bugs me when they do
the cross-casting. And knowing the historical animosity between certain
peoples (Japanese and Korean in particular), I'm sure it must annoy some of
them, too.
Do you agree that Koreans look quite similar to Japanese? Chinese
have a diverse look and can both look Korean or Japanese and also
Vietnamese. It depends who plays it. Lucy Liu can pretty much play a
Japanese because she has smaller eyes, or has a single eyelid. If you
take Simon Yam or Leslie Cheung, then they do not look at all like
Koreans nor Japanese. Tony Leung (little Tony) is an interesting case
because he has a universal face. I can very well see him be a Korean,
Japanese, Vietnamese and of course, Chinese.

http://tvbmusic.tripod.com/
M-Wolverine
2003-08-21 17:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by OC Gwailo
Post by Canuck21
On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:04:17 GMT, "OC Gwailo"
Post by OC Gwailo
I still haven't figured out why it bugs me when Dustin Nguyen plays every
Asian nationality, Lucy Liu plays Japanese, and Rick Yune has yet to play
a
Post by Canuck21
Post by OC Gwailo
Korean (what I call Universal Asian Syndrome), but it's perfectly okay
with
Post by Canuck21
Post by OC Gwailo
me that Antonio Banderas, a Spaniard, plays a Mexican.
But I draw the line at Scotsmen playing Americans! ;)
The reason is you're overly sensitive. Everybody is equal, so if
Irish, Scottish, English, Australians and Canadians can play
Americans, then a Chinese can sure pretend to be Japanese.
Canuck21
http://tvbmusic.tripod.com/
*I'm* overly sensitive? Why you--! :D
I'm not sure what you mean by "Everybody is equal." (Actually, I think I'm
with you on this.) How about this: Let's strip all actors of their skin and
then we'll be on the way to visual equality. Because I think what we're
talking about here is skin color and features. And while the Western
European features of all those nationalities you mentioned are extremely
similar, it's not so between Asians. Maybe it's a cross-breeding thing.
Perhaps it IS a matter of sensitivity. I can look at a woman and tell she's
Vietnamese, because I'm attuned to the differences in the...shoot, what do
you even call it? Nationalities? Put it this way: There is quite a bit of
crossover in "looks," but in general I can tell Japanese from Vietnamese
from Korean from Chinese. And because I can, it sorta bugs me when they do
the cross-casting. And knowing the historical animosity between certain
peoples (Japanese and Korean in particular), I'm sure it must annoy some of
them, too.
I think it depends on the individual. There are some asians that I
can discern the differences in their race quite easily (I'd say
Japanese are usually the most distinctive, generally speaking...if
we're not counting more mixes like Filipino). But there are other
individuals who are very similar. I remember not too long ago they
had a link here to a website that quized people in trying to tell the
asian nationalities apart...and I didn't do so hot, because they
really chose people with generic features.

Likewise, I don't know that the difference is as great as you make it
seem. Certainly no more than say a Swede and a Greek. That goes for
the dislikes too...having a Turk play a Greek, or such, can certainly
create some anger in those groups....but I don't know that the
generally public is going to see that as too much a stretch. The Die
Hard movies have European villians of all sorts played by Englishmen.
The Bond movies do a lot of nationality switching, even in their more
enlightened years. (Won't get into asians in Dr. No, but From Russia
with Love has Mexicans playing Turks, Englishmen playing Russian
{heck, everyone playing Russians], women of all European nationalities
being dubbed over throughout, For Your eyes only had English, French
and Jews playing Greek, Octopussy French playing Indian, The World is
not Enough, a French Woman playing English/Eastern European, and so
forth). And I won't even get into the pain of Daredevil, with
Jennifer Garner playing Greek. (Which is different than making the
Kingpin go from white to black....he wasn't black, PLAYING white).

And like I said...I can't wait to see the reaction to Anthony Hopkins
playing a black man this fall....

Besides which, you're limiting Asian actors too...not only to only
being able to play asian, but others themselves. Did Kelly Hu really
look Egyptian to anyone? (probably no more or less than the Rock, but
I digress).

Chris C.
FMastermind2002
2003-08-20 22:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by FMastermind2002
The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.
Hmmm...what's exactly wrong with this?
There is nothing wrong with it because the character Lucy Liu plays in "Kill
Bill" isn't Japanese but rather Chinese American (according to the first draft
of the script). I haven't seen the film yet so I don't know how much of the
script Tarantino changed from the first draft, but I doubt he upped and changed
Lucy's character.

Mastermind2002
David Maciver
2003-08-21 18:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by FMastermind2002
There is nothing wrong with it because the character Lucy Liu plays in "Kill
Bill" isn't Japanese but rather Chinese American (according to the first draft
of the script). I haven't seen the film yet so I don't know how much of the
script Tarantino changed from the first draft, but I doubt he upped and changed
Lucy's character.
Mastermind2002
I think she's meant to be half Chinese/Half Japanese now...
FMastermind2002
2003-07-18 17:37:02 UTC
Permalink
lol who are you to know what I'm thinking? I'm not even Asian!>>
It doesn't matter if you're Asian. That pompus attitude has no race. And my
observation was just that, a observation. Obviously I don't know what's inside
your head, however your comments led in a direction that I reponded to.


<< On the
other hand I should have written more.>>
Perhaps you should've.

I'm no fan of Tarantino, I
don't believe.....
We don't need to go any further. I understand where you're coming from now.
Post by FMastermind2002
<<How do you know his screenplay is any good? Have you read it?>>
Yes I have. I've read it 4 times.
Right, the "unofficial" online version.
Two chapters were added to the shooting script and one chapter was deleted from
the first draft. Like I said if Tarantino accomplishes 80% of the screenplay,
he will have the best film of the year.
Next time, show some restraint before you blab off like a fool.
Lol, I learn it from you.

Mastermind2002
FMastermind2002
2003-07-19 16:40:12 UTC
Permalink
The only thing that is astounding is that you complain about this newsgroup
yet you continually come back flacking for KILL BULL.>>
If someone posts on a topic concerning "Kill Bill", I respond to it because I
have a interest in the topic. I don't go on a spamming spree, posting endless
shit about Kill Bill so what are you talking about? When was the last time a
topic concerning "Kill Bill" even appeared in this newsgroup? Been a while,
huh? As far as me complaining, I only have a problem with people who form and
express opinions without knowing what the hell they're talking about.

I could care less whether or not people in this newsgroup hate or love "Kill
Bill", all I'm saying is know what the hell you're talking about.

<<Why? Because you think
that fans of "Asian" movies will automatically be interested in Tarantino's
slighty fetishistic obsession with making a Hollywood version of a "Asian"
film.>>
LOL, Hollywood version of a "Asian" film? I'm sorry, I guess it's a sin for
Tarnatino to be inspired by Asian cinema. I suppose he has to get the approval
of the "alt.asian-movies" newsgroup before he can make a film inspired by Asian
Cinema.


<< This is the same guy who wanted to have the voice track slightly out
of sync as an "homage" to old Kung-fu films.>>
What's so wrong with that? From the American experience that's the way many
Americans were introduced to "Shaw Brothers" films in the 70's. The first time
I ever watched and most likely a lot of Americans watched "Master Killer" was
with voices dubbed. Once you grow up watching "SB" films, you become accustomed
to dubbed voices and such. Those "dubbed voices" become apart of the genre
experience. So when Tarnatino wants to use a dubbed track in the "Tutelage of
Pai Mei" chapter, I understand where he's coming from.

<<The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.>>
If you would've read the script which you obviously didn't, because this
comment wouldn't never been made, you'll see that Lucy Liu's character O-Ren
Ishii is actually Chinese American. The whole reasoning behind how a Chinese
American could become the boss of all criminal activity in Tokyo, is explained
in the "Showdown at House of Blue Leaves" chapter. Once again this is what I'm
talking about. People talking about stuff they know nothing about and forming
opinions because of it.

<<The same guy who at first wanted to play an old Chinese sifu>>

Obviously his over enthusiasm for playing Pai Mei got the best of him at first,
but he came to his senses and had Gordon Liu play Pai Mei. Who wouldn't want to
play the role Pai Mei. Every time I watch "Fists Of The White Lotus" I wanted
to be Pai Mei and I'm African American. Pai Mei is the shit! On a side note,
the presense of Gordon Liu and Sonny Chiba in this film sealed the deal with
me.

<<Perhaps what you should be doing is lowering everyone's expectations instead
of trying to raise the bar so high he will never meet it.>>
Guys like yourself are doing a great job of lowering everyone's expectations,
so why would I want to do your job. As far a me raising the bar, that bar is
set because a film combining so many genres of film has NEVER been done before
in Hollywood. Hell, I don't think it's ever been done before in Asian Cinema.

<<If the bullshit is astounding, then stop swimming in it.>>

I rather scoop that bullshit out, put in some fresh clean water, then I'll swim
in it. This post accounts for one of those scoops.

Mastermind2002
TetsuwanATOM
2003-07-21 08:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by FMastermind2002
The only thing that is astounding is that you complain about this newsgroup
yet you continually come back flacking for KILL BULL.>>
If someone posts on a topic concerning "Kill Bill", I respond to it because I
have a interest in the topic. I don't go on a spamming spree, posting endless
shit about Kill Bill so what are you talking about?
Lie. If you do a google group search on your name and "Kill Bill" one finds
that you bring the movie up when no one is even talking about it.
Post by FMastermind2002
LOL, Hollywood version of a "Asian" film? I'm sorry, I guess it's a sin for
Tarnatino to be inspired by Asian cinema. I suppose he has to get the approval
of the "alt.asian-movies" newsgroup before he can make a film inspired by Asian
Cinema.
There's a fine line between inspiration and theivery.
Post by FMastermind2002
<< This is the same guy who wanted to have the voice track slightly out
of sync as an "homage" to old Kung-fu films.>>
What's so wrong with that?
It's insulting. It's not honoring the films, it's honoring the practice of
watching movies on TV on a Saturday. If he really wants to pay tribute, have
the actors all speaking their native tongues and subtitle it.
Post by FMastermind2002
<<The same guy who cast Lucy Liu
as a Japanese woman.>>
If you would've read the script which you obviously didn't, because this
comment wouldn't never been made, you'll see that Lucy Liu's character O-Ren
Ishii is actually Chinese American. The whole reasoning behind how a Chinese
American could become the boss of all criminal activity in Tokyo, is explained
in the "Showdown at House of Blue Leaves" chapter. Once again this is what I'm
talking about. People talking about stuff they know nothing about and forming
opinions because of it.
You get a point for having read some thing you found online that may or may
not be the real thing. Wow.
<shilling snipped>

<<Perhaps what you should be doing is lowering everyone's expectations
instead
Post by FMastermind2002
of trying to raise the bar so high he will never meet it.>>
Guys like yourself are doing a great job of lowering everyone's expectations,
so why would I want to do your job. As far a me raising the bar, that bar is
set because a film combining so many genres of film has NEVER been done before
in Hollywood.
Why does one assume that combining a lot of genres is a good thing? Who says
it will work? Why should anyone like it because he takes a lot of ideas
someone has already done?

Hell, I don't think it's ever been done before in Asian Cinema.

RETURNER did it.
Post by FMastermind2002
<<If the bullshit is astounding, then stop swimming in it.>>
I rather scoop that bullshit out, put in some fresh clean water, then I'll swim
in it. This post accounts for one of those scoops.
Whatever dude.
Post by FMastermind2002
Mastermind2002
FMastermind2002
2003-07-21 18:19:56 UTC
Permalink
<<Lie. If you do a google group search on your name and "Kill Bill" one finds
that you bring the movie up when no one is even talking about it.>>
Let's look closely at that "google group search". "Kill Bill trailer in LA
Comic Convention" thread.That's a "Kill Bill" related topic so natually I
discussed the film. Next thread I believe was a topic on "Yuki's Revenge" which
I was reporting some news I read from Harry Knowles' set reports a while back.
That's a news related topic. If it wasn't news I wouldn't have posted it. No
spam. In fact most of my posts that I bring up "KB" is because something in the
topic has connection to the film.

If you have no interest in the film and what not, why waste time replying to a
post regarding the film? Not clicking on the topic would be so much easier. I
really don't care for Stephen Chow's "Shaolin Soccer", but I'm not going to act
all pompus and use the typical bullshit fanboy responses because people liked
and discussed the film. I simply didn't click on those threads,

<<There's a fine line between inspiration and theivery.>>

I assume you're talking about the "City On Fire" nonsense. Well my position on
that is this. Yes, "Reservoir Dogs" was greatly inspired by "City On Fire". As
far as the issue of borrowing or as you say theivery, every film in some way
borrows elements and ideas from another film. I think the real issue is
Tarantino didn't openly admit that he used City on Fire as a blueprint for Dogs
and therefore he must be the most evil man on earth. Listen, I'm not defending
what Tarantino did because it was wrong, but then it comes a time to move on.

<<It's insulting. It's not honoring the films, it's honoring the practice of
watching movies on TV on a Saturday.>>

I don't find it insulting at all, not in this case. In this case I can
logically give the dubbing a pass because like I said, it became part of the
American cultural experience. Most likely in the Asia verison, nothing will be
dubbed because they got to see all the films in the native language.


<<If he really wants to pay tribute, have
the actors all speaking their native tongues and subtitle it.>>
There will be parts of the film subtitled. All Sonny Chiba's stuff is subtitled
and a lot of stuff with the Crazy 88 is subtitled. The only part that won't be
subtitled is the Pai Mei chapter, but then again what I read was the first
draft of the KB screenplay, so perhaps even the Pai Mei chapter is subtitled
now.


<<You get a point for having read some thing you found online that may or may
not be the real thing. Wow.>>
And you get a point for immediately assuming Lucy Liu's character was Japanese.
Double WOW.
Why does one assume that combining a lot of genres is a good thing?
It's a good thing if done properly. In Tarantino's case I believe it will work,
because he ONLY takes from the strengths of those genres and leaves the
weaknesses. When you take all those strengths and structure them properly in a
interesting screenplay, you get the ultimate grindhouse film that people like
myself WANT to see.

<<Who says it will work?>>

Why should anyone HAVE to say whether or not it will work. Either it will work
or not. My opinion on it working or yours on it not working is meaningless.

<<Why should anyone like it because he takes a lot of ideas someone has already
done?>>

Most likely because he takes those ideas and improves upon them and brings a
freshness to them. Things like Dialogue (especially), pacing, music and visual
style. This has already been the case with Dogs and Pulp Fiction.

Hell, I don't think it's ever been done before in Asian Cinema.
RETURNER did it.>>
Returner consisted of cyperpunk, Anime, and comic books. However I said, NEVER
has there been a film combining so MANY genres of film than "Kill Bill". Sure,
there has been films combining genres, but as many as "KB"?

<<If the bullshit is astounding, then stop swimming in it.>>
Post by FMastermind2002
I rather scoop that bullshit out, put in some fresh clean water, then I'll
swim
Post by FMastermind2002
in it. This post accounts for one of those scoops.
Whatever dude.
LOL, the typical whatever dude response. And people say Tarantino is not
original.

Mastermind2002
FMastermind2002
2003-07-19 21:17:50 UTC
Permalink
A shill and a pretentious fanboy.
Kill yourself>>
After you, dumb ass

Mastermind2002
FMastermind2002
2003-07-21 20:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Shill Bill,>>
Once again we start off with the fanboy bullshit, ok next...

<<Dude, you didn't mention the thread in the hip-hop group when you just HAD
to bring up the movie, lol.>>
One thread with one sentence bringing up the film, nice thing to hang YOUR hat
on.. next.
yeah I said whatever because you're dying to have the last word. and I would
have let you because you really are just making a fanboy's defense of a film
and film maker.>>
Seems like alt.Asian-movies guys love to throw around the word "fanboby". I
love how you skimmed over everything I said even though it was on point, ONLY
to use that stupid typical fanboy response. I even said that what Tarantino did
regarding the City On Fire issue was wrong, I clearly stated that I wasn't
defending what he did, yet the easy fanboy bullshit comes out of your mouth. As
far as the film "KB", opinions vary, so enough of this fanboy nonsense...next


<<I am really beginning to hate auteurists. However, this
Post by FMastermind2002
Hell, I don't think it's ever been done before in Asian Cinema.
RETURNER did it.>>
Returner consisted of cyperpunk, Anime, and comic books.
Either you haven't seen the movie, or you missed out on the buddy movie
part, the "inspiration" of LEON: THE PROFESSIONAL, TERMINATOR, Takashi
yakuza flicks, etc. There's next to zero "cyberpunk" in RETURNER.
The visual style is cyberpunk so that genre is covered. Admittedly, I've only
seen bits and peices of the film, so I apologize for excluding those other
genres, however they still don't add up to as many as "KB.

Mastermind2002
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